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The value of freedom

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Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.25 05:53:00 - [1] First, before I begin, let me make a brief statement about what I hope to accomplish here. My goal is to seek understanding and empathy; not cause an argument or insult anyone. However I can only speak from my point of view, which to many I could imagine, may be inflammatory. So, with that said, lets dig into the real meat of the matter. Throughout my life there has been one concept which seems to elude me. What is freedom and what is its value. On a intellectual level I can clearly understand it, self determination and ability to chose what one does with their life. However this concept holds very little weight to me. I see every day republic and federation forces fighting, killing, and toiling their entire lives to bring freedom to perfectly happy people. Freedom, to them, must be worth more than happiness or even their lives. I cannot grasp why this could be. Now I can understand the will to be free from a dangerous or harmful situation. In the case of slavery I hear of isolated cases of abuse and torture to slaves. In these extreme, and to my knowledge rare, cases freedom is equatable to life and happiness (two concepts with obvious weight). Also I certainly understand the need to have a free mind. Such luxury that the Nation delights in robbing people of. In both these cases freedom is directly equatable to well-being. So I ask you for your thoughts on the value of freedom. I'm not interested in arguments telling me to release my slaves or such. I am interested in what it means to someone who finds value in it, preferably in a quantifiable manner. Thank you for your time and I wish you good health and God's blessing.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.26 01:08:00 - [2] So, quite a bit to cover in my absence. I obviously wont be able to cover everything, but worthwhile to respond to the best of my ability. You are correct in assuming my strong faith and that my values here are rooted in that faith. to that note, the contradiction noted is their mostly because of my faith. To explain, I am interested in the academics related to freedom, my values will not change as my faith will not change. I avoided such strait forward wording to prevent this from becoming a largely theological argument. So I acknowledge the contradiction. As far as always having freedom, I suppose I could understand that thought. Although given my history growing up in a very affluent family, I cannot remember a time when growing up that my time wasn't entirely scripted by someone else. My parents had an entire staff hired to keep nearly every hour of my day was scheduled. In which case the only true 'freedom' growing up was the times I would have with my personal slave, largely getting in the kind of trouble juveniles are prone to. But at the end of it all I was happy and felt that is what mattered. Not that I'm comparing my life in wealth to that of a slave, but rather freedom not being a prerequisite to being happy. (as a special note, although slavery is definatly related to this thread, it is not the subject. Freedom as a concept is.)
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.28 06:53:00 - [3] I'm not sure that's relevant to the subject matter. The concept that death is freedom is an interesting one, but I would say misguided, although I'm not interested in a discussion on the theology of it right now. Either way it doesn't provide a basis of why freedom has any value at all, and I still don't understand why its worth fighting for. As I said earlier, the concept of the value of freedom is completely lost to me. It would be nice to hear something better and more concise than 'freedom is good because it is.' That just makes no sense.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.28 08:58:00 - [4] I suppose that's a more cohesive answer than most. I can understand the Idea of pride a little bit better, since that is a bit more tangible to me. Although i know you didn't intend to liken it in this way, pride is a deadly sin. Since I often see peoples idea of freedom the ability to harm themselves, it would support this idea... but again I understand not exactly what you meant. still, more sensible than death = freedom.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.29 08:44:00 - [5] Originally by: Cassina Lemour Edited by: Cassina Lemour on 29/08/2011 08:32:12 Ah, the parable of the Goose, yes we've all heard it before and know the truth. That the farmer hatches a few gosling from the eggs of the captive goose and slaughters it for the winter feast, while the free goose flys south to warmer lands with off-spring. I don't know how you see slavery, but I don't make a point to regularly shoot my charges for giggles. For that matter I don't know of any good Amarrian who does either. Even the most pesimistic view of slavery will have to awknowlege that the health of the slave is important. Sickly (or dead) slaves cannot work. For that matter slaves are not cheap, casually tossing them aside is bad business.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.29 20:07:00 - [6] Again catching up on some very quality posts I have missed, seems like all the action occurs when I'm asleep. anyway, I think from Manwe's thoughts on the topic it makes alot more sense. Freedom being the ability to help the universe out in more meaningful ways than simply doing low end labor. That is value as I do find such endeavor brings far more happiness than a good meal. However, by nature of your capsuleer status, it is safe to assume that its a minority for people who can rise to such heights. Now to respond to some other thoughts, I am under agreement that Vitoc is a horrid stuff. The origonal goal of slavery, which is conversion, is destroyed but the stuff. I have not forgotten that my people, the Khanid, where enslaved mearly 300 years before the Minmatar. The only time I can condone its use is for criminal slaves whom need control. It is a far better fate than death. Also, I feel that the merits of slavery should be brought into light as well. If you stop and consider slavery as more of a feudal system, the entire system snaps into focus. As a holder my responsibility is to my people, my slaves. I protect them, keep them fed, and keep order. In return they provide me labor so I may continue to live up to my responsibilities. My people enjoy a very safe existence whereas they need not worry about crime or potentially deadly threats to them. While I understand that my treatment of slaves is superior than most holders, most slaves don't live in hellish like conditions where their basic dignity is stripped from them. If I was not preoccupied with other important matters, I would be interested in the formation of an internal policing agency to monitor and improve slave treatment. Something to akin to a slave bill of rights, as it where. This could very well go with her Holiness Sarum's recent speeches on slaves.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.29 22:42:00 - [7] Well the entire idea of this conversation was to determine if freedom was a catchy buzzword simply to demonize the empire, or if it had any true value to it. As I see it now, its a mixture of both. Some individuals (particularly in the federation) use it simply as a handy buzzword to justify their actions and their sins. As one early poster had noted I would not understand freedom since I have always had it.... This would apply to the Federation would it not? However there are some who understand it on a deeper level, far deeper than I, who it does hold a measurable value to. Those are the people I meant to find with this, and I believe I have gotten what I came for, in that I am pleased. Now, my views on slavery often lead people to think I'm just one step away from freeing my slaves. While I do care very deeply for my subjects, God placed me in a position to take care and guide my flock. I will not betray his divine will, nor the trust of my people. They are within my loving grasp and I will not let go. But know they are very well cared for and we share a trust that is far deeper than many could understand.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.30 20:53:00 - [8] I apologize for my more... passionate tone earlier, I can get a little defensive, sometimes emotional, about my slaves. The simple fact is I don't see my duties as a holder as one to be taken lightly, nor an excuse for cheap labor. There is alot of pride to be taken in taking care of so many people. I do care greatly as well. Care almost to a point where simply hiring Amarrian citizens would be cheaper. Slavery wasn't originally for the money, and people who use it as a tool for profit are ignoring the entire point of the endeavor. I would even go so far as to agree with the so called freedom fighters that there is no God in that. Besides, what would change if I mearly started to pay them and called them free? They would still have no choices open to them. They do not belong yet in the Empire as citizens, and turning over trained and strong people to a republic which has attacked my kin is downright treason. Even if I paid them they would still have no option but to work for me, but now I couldn't take care for them properly. This is a extremely poor option for anyone whom cares at all about their well being. For now, I wont abandon my charges. I would either be opening them up to a Empire whom isn't ready for them or a republic which will betray me (my slaves as well... Rens isn't exactly the best place to live with some 50% of its surface run by local gangs).
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.30 22:39:00 - [9] I believe the point was entirely lost on you. What your asking for is either treason or just downright non-nonsensical. For mine, paying them a servants wage would decrease their standard of living. For that matter, what would change for them? Nothing... Although I believe that this has crossed a tangent not within the original scope of this thread. I am grateful of the various opinions shared. Some speaking clearly answering my question, others from the same cult of greed I encounter on a frightening regular basis. Either way, I am grateful of your time.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.08.31 08:41:00 - [10] Talking about the Earth theory is extremely off topic... although that does not stop it from being interesting. I would like to invite all to visit my families tavern located in Hayumtom were we can discuss such matters in a more appropriate location. It is equipped with state of the art holo emitters so even if you cannot make it out here ya can partake in the conversation. Simply contact me via mail and Ill give you the information. I look forward for your patronage.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.01 09:16:00 - [11] Military strength aside, slavery has a purpose and is not strictly for the holders benefit. I believe someone earlier referred to me treating my slaves as my herd whom I guide as 'messiah complex.' Yes, it is my sacred duty to save those who serve me from eternal damnation. Although I do not refer to myself as a messiah, it is my sacred duty. For that matter a slave's live isn't always a terrible thing. While I agree there are misguided individuals whom disgrace the Empire with their gluttony, this isn't the norm. Most slaves live a very modest and content life. True it can be hard work, but should not every man earn his way in this universe? Beside the point, a single lifetime measured against an eternity of salvation is a easy trade. If only we were all as blessed to have the road to heaven laid out before our feet from the moment we emerge from the womb. The slaves have this, while the rest of us must be vigilant from sin our entire lives. Us capsuleers are damned with many lifetimes to lose our way to the lord. When our day comes we will not have the same luxury as the slave whom toiled in the fields. I understand that the spiritual arguments will be hard, if not impossible, to grasp from someone who is unfaithful. From where I am standing arguments about freedom or personal rights are hard to grasp.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.01 19:28:00 - [12] my answers to your questions are simular to Merdaneth. Considering my entire workforce is almost all slaves, I require more specialized and educated positions. Maintaining an Amarrian antimatter reactor isn't something you let some vitoc slave with no training do! Although their education is rather spechalized, I do attempt to play to the strengths of my slaves to the limitations of available jobs... This is absolutely no different in the republic or the federation. You simply cannot be what no one needs. They key difference is their is only equality between my educated laser frequency modulator and the guy doing the grunt labor replacing the crystals live the same life style. I do regularly free my slaves whom have shown a great fortitude of faith, as I noted in my post 'my promise to my slaves' about a year ago. Almost all of them decide to stay on with me. This has always been the tradition in my family. Most of my slave keepers are, by blood, Minmatar, but by faith and traditions, completely Amarrian.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.01 20:26:00 - [13] Pretend for a second your an explorer whom found an undiscovered people on an alien planet. Say those people are cannibal's whom regularly kill and eat people who have done no harm. Obviously this would be considered disgusting and wrong... however you are just an explorer who's job is to observe and cant change whats happening. Now in this case you may ask yourself a reasonable question... WHY do they do this. You would seek understanding of the anthropology of the people. Your seeking understanding to know it better, not to emulate it. If what your saying is true, trying to understand the why of their savage ways is the exact same as trying to become a savage yourself. obviously not the case.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.01 20:44:00 - [14] No... i was not referring to the Minmatar as cannibalistic savages... at all... It was a response to Ston about his drawing a line between me understanding the concept of freedom (a point we have gone far from at this point) and freeing slaves. One that I saw no connection to and was pointing out his reasoning with an hypothetical example.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.01 21:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Ston Momaki If you wish to push the agenda of understanding freedom, prepare for the agenda of abolition to be pushed right along with it. They cannot and shall not be separated. Originally by: Ston Momaki Ms Goldcore, let me save you some time. I am not trying to draw any logical lines between your intellectual understanding of freedom and the freeing of slaves. Your words not mine Originally by: Ston Momaki I am here to to help create moral dissonance in your heart. The words I say are directed toward that end. I am simply doing my best to help you integrate what you have separated; the intellectual pursuit of understanding from your practice of slave ownership. My heart belongs to God and empire. There is no higher authority than that. So I ask you Ston, why should I have any dissonance at all? Misquoting the Empress holds no weight on me... I do take seriously that the time for slavery is ending, and hope my actions will make this transition smoother. I still find no value in freedom... although understand on a more rational level why people would hold value in it. Mistreating humans, slave or otherwise, is wrong... I do not see any signs mistreatment of humans among my slaves. I care far too much for them. However... I will make some admissions. There are those in the empire, like any society, which have risen to power and yet are evil. Faith is not an excuse to forgo vigilance. Not every holder is just. Owning slaves is a sacred privilege reserved for the Sheppard among us who can guide their people to salvation. Those whom abuse their slaves for sake of material gain will know only damnation. Perhaps not in this life but the next.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.01 22:54:00 - [16] I do love seeing how your perfectly willing to assume I am willing to change my opinion, but at the same time hold no will to consider that your position is flawed. If your thinking 'but I am right and you are wrong,' then we have the exact same thing in mind. Ston, perhaps you have more capsuleer in you in which you find so inhuman. Eternal salvation is worth more than a single lifetime many times over. You ask me to make my people suffer for your beliefs, why would I ever do a thing like that. I will fight to defend my people from the legions of damned souls who will bring them never ending torment. Also... didn't I freely admit that there may be those in the Empire whom have power and yet are evil? Faith does not forgo vigilance I believe were my exact words.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.02 04:10:00 - [17] No... I would never betray so many people because you will like me more for it... Never I have faithfully answered your questions and am not 'beating around the bush.' In return I've received the same arguments ive heard since i was 5
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.03 00:45:00 - [18] My thoughts exactly Nicoletta Mithra. So far the only reason I have for my slavery for being bad is 'because I said so.' Unless your God or the Empress that doesn't hold much sway over me at all. I have stated all the reasons I believe in the practice as a valuable tool. As far as I can tell most of my points grounded in faith have been simply ignored, as well as most of my reasoning. As I have stated in may different ways, many different times, you are asking me to do something you yourself simply flat-out refuse to do. I have heard your paper thin arguments for my entire life and they still make no more sense from your lips than the last guy. The slaves of the empire deserve so much better than shallow and misguided path you prescribe. You know absolutely nothing of the Empire and its people, of which I count my slaves. Things wont be suddenly better if I pay them. Every attempt I have made to explain this is met with 'abolition now' or other nonsensical one liners. Furthermore, words are slandered and twisted beyond recognition to meet your thinly hidden needs. It may earn you credence with others like you, but it means nothing to someone with a strong will or strong faith. If you truly want to debate this topic, perhaps try to understand me first. Perhaps then you can bring something new to the table. Otherwise I'm convinced the only reason you pester me and other holders is for your own self gratification.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.03 02:06:00 - [19] From a outsiders point of view this thread looks something like this... I pose a question with attempt to keep it non-confrontational. Intelligent discourse. with some very important points Personal admissions and answers to discourse. FREEDOM NOW! I note its off topic. YOUR A MONSTER!! I note its off topic again. YOU HAVE A MESSIAH COMPLEX AND KNOW NOTHING OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN!! Why not just have a drink at my bar and disc-... ABOLITION NOW!!!! I feel cheated from what could have been so much more. Even when we began to flounder I have tried to be nothing less than direct and answer questions in a meaningful way. Me and those who are like minded have done a fair job within reason of being human. I have tried to do nothing less than state my opinions on such matters in as clear of a mater as I can (but I'm a scientist not an speech writer), even as far as listing a few times my beliefs. But now I am treated with superb generalizations about an nation I do not claim to have any connection with... It would be very nice if someone could spend time listening instead of yelling. I tried to listen the cause of 'freedom' but heard only white noise and pointless yelling with no meaningful content... and was told I was the devil. My offer still stands to enjoy a few glasses of my family's famous spiced wine and perhaps we can try again.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.03 03:07:00 - [20] I chose to be Khanid? I was BORN khanid if thats what you are refering to... However I have no choice in the matter. Or did I miss a step while I was in my mothers womb? My family has always remained with the Empire where I grew up on Hayumtom at my family's plantation. My family has always distanced itself from the Dark Amarr and always been unionists. I grew up with slaves and I remember when my parents granted me my first slave. He was young, only about 10 years older than I (me being 4 at the time). He was the son of the family whos task was to take care of me while I was an infant. I owe him my life many times over before I became a capsuleer. Now, 20 years later, the boy now still serves me and is one of my most trusted advisers and servants. You have yelled repeatedly ABOLITION NOW!... repeating it multiple times in a single post on a number of occasions. While not directly stating I was a monster it has been implied many times. And again, I did not start the debate on slavery and had originally attempted to steer it back to the main topic at hand. I will admit I have since become defensive, but I haven't heard a meaningful reply to my 'quest' for a while now. I did not start this debate, nor intend to have it at all... When rafting a river you have no choice but to turn were the river turns.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.03 03:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Qansh Freedom means the ability to move to any point. That also means having the ability to move to any point that you are stuck on. In other words, freedom means having the inner grace to accept the things that you cannot change. This inner grace is also that which allows you to open up to larger horizons of freedom. You see? Freedom is a wonderfully slippery thing that defies any opportunity to pin it down, as befits its meaning. That's also why politicians love to get their dirty little hands on it. Something new! And I appreciate your time. Anyway, why is this valuable though? Do you feel its necessarily to be happy or complete as a person? Or is it an accessory to those ends? Please share more.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.04 09:14:00 - [22] I just realized I have been trying to debate with someone who has absolutely no interest in me, my culture, or my servants. Not only have you completely misread my intentions Ston, but your ability to completely miss the point is... quite honestly... amazing. My most trusted servant and chief adviser is at a complete loss. I think said something that's akin to... well... it doesn't belong in a place like this. Believe it or not I do care for my servants. From the very bottom of my heart I truly do. Any bit of wisdom which can improve our relationship is valuable to me. However this whole notion that suddenly paying them will transform them is just absurd. I have covered my reasons why I believe this in great detail, none of which addressed at all by people who continue to debate with me, so I wont repeat myself again. So, I'm going to simply say it strait... Either contribute in a productive way to the matter at hand or stop wasting everyone's time turning this thread into something it shouldn't be.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.04 18:05:00 - [23] No issues where raised in your previous post. Simply assumptions about me, my intentions, and my beliefs that simply are not true. Its easy to make a straw-man argument about someone who has proven to be nothing more than a straw-man. Faith kills fear. Any fear I feel is for the safety and well being of my servants. I truly hope and expect slavery in the empire to slowly come to a close in within the next two decades or so. The Empire is preparing itself from within for all the new Amarrians (I do mean the slaves) to be welcomed into society. Educating and preparing ones servants is the most productive way to achieve this. Not all servants will be ready and they will need additional preparation for this time. Further, slaves being integrated into the Empire is not because freedom is neat... It's because many have proven themselves worthy. The Minmatar people are not inferior (many qualities I believe as superior). They deserve better than the Republic or the Federation. Contrary to popular belief I do not fear the end of slavery... I will embrace it when that time is right. As I said... I do seek empathy and understanding for the value of freedom. Why? I have stated a few reasons, all of which are still true... I do want the best for my slaves and if there is some element of freedom that can hold true to my values and be beneficial. Anything that will make my servants better is alright in my book. With how much blood I have split in defending my land, I feel as if I need to understand why. I do desire a logical reasoning why people would find freedom so valuable to attempt such vile things against the Empire. I hate the idea of mindlessly killing over someone do to hate so I want to understand more about what I am fighting. (As a note I have never done an aggressive attack against either the republic or the federation. I have defended my lands from invaders whom sought to kill the Empire IN Empire space). Perhaps when the improvements to the IGS in the coming week I should have a tell all about myself and my slaves.
Thgil Goldcore Amarr Robonia	Posted - 2011.09.05 01:43:00 - [24] I believe you will notice I display quite a bit of interest and respond appropriately to anyone who was on topic. I can't deal with it anymore... Ston... I don't think I can take the making up points that don't exsis't, inability to construct an argument or reason within the bounds of one, and absolute disregard for any point but your own. I'm going to ask again... contribute or leave.

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